Entertainment or Wrestling, what's more important?

[Trixie Dominatrix]

I thought this would be an interesting subject to discuss, seeing as how some people talked about it in the "HBK upset with Cena" thread.

What's more important in wrestling. Making the match entertaining or the real actual wrestling itself. To make it easier to understand I'm basically saying is it more important for a wrestler to be entertaining in a match or have tons of different moves.

Thank you to TheKid for inspiring me in a way to do this topic, here's the post.

Wrestling isn't about MOVESETZ. This isn't a SMACKDOWN! game. Wrestling is about emotions, both from the wrestlers and the crowd. Cena is capable of getting an emotional response from the crowd (at least in his big matches) and that's what is really at the core of good wrestling.

Just because someone doesn't do 800 move Indy classicz for everyone of their matches, doesn't mean they cant be a good wrestler.

Personally I mark out huge when I see Shawn Michaels do his moonsault from the turnbuckle to the outside spot that he does, and I mark out when Taker does his suicide plancha spot. Now I know that there are countless TNA and ROH dudes who can do the exact same spots even better than these guys can, but I personally don't really care all that much about their characters, so it kinda goes to waste. Do you realise how much I'd mark out if I saw Triple H hit a 450 Splash from the top of a cage, through a table? Why didn't I mark out to the same degree when I saw a video on YouTube of some guy I'd never seen before doing that exact spot? Because I don't know and don't care about his character. He isn't 'over' to me as a spectator, while Triple H's is.

Some Cena haters live in this fantasy world where wrestlers need to have huge movesets and incredible technical prowess to put on an entertaining match. They don't. Of course it can help, but there are several ways of captivating an audience without being Chris Benoit or Rob Van Dam.

This has nothing to do with Cena, but he can be used as an example. Do not start this as a Anti-Cena thread.

I will be posting my thoughts later.

[Juan Miguels]

I watch wrestling for good quality in-ring action. Thats it. Dont care about the mic unless its truely funny. The 'mic" stuff should be left to people like Joel Gertner or Bobby Heenan. Not wrestlers.

And Im all set with seeing stupid shit like reverse chin locks and other rest holds then the match is still slow and shitty even when a rest hold is not going on. I like the fast paced agressive style of wrestling that keeps you on the edge of your seat instead of being bored as fuck. Its like comparing a Geo Metro to a Corvette.

Wrestling all the way.

[chanandler20]

Wrestling is more important in a match because it's a fucking wrestling match.

[UTisNUM1]

TheKid contridicts himself.

but I personally don't really care all that much about their characters

Why didn't I mark out to the same degree when I saw a video on YouTube of some guy I'd never seen before doing that exact spot? Because I don't know and don't care about his character.

^^^I thought i would point that out.

Anywho, i think they both are equaly important. You need good wrestling in a wrestling product but you also need some entertainment to build up matches and for the crowd to be more into the charectars to cheer for.

They both are important. Ones needs to be more focused on (Wrestling) because you need a good match to end the great storyline that went along with it (Entertainment)

[chanandler20]

thekid is always contracting himself, first he insults CM Punk and then he gets on his nuts.

[Ben]

Both.

In order to truly hyp a wrestling match you must have the entertainment side of it to spark an interest with the audience. Even ECW had entertainment. Do you think Tommy Dreamer Vs Raven was all about wrestling? What about The Sandman? He's a walking gimmick. ROH too, they have storylines just like everyone else. CZW Vs ROH was one of the most entertaining angles ever. Wrestling is great but Entertainment means alot too. With the entertainment factor there would be no ECW, No Sandman, No Austin, No CM PUnk, No Hardyz, No Jericho, No 'Taker, No HBK, No Tommy Dreamer. All these guys have gimmicks. Without them they'd just be a bunch of guys in tights with no identification beating each other up for absoulutely no reason. No physchology at all. Rock/Austin had awesome matches, but how many peopler would've ordered it if their storyline wasn't so damn good? Even guys like The Eliminators had a gimmick. Without gimmicks there wouldn't even be nicknames and finishing moves. If it was "just wrestling" there would be no Pro-Wrestling. Just ameuture wrestling. Entertainment is what makes Pro-Wrestling different and is what makes it.........well what makes it entertaining. Guy I idolize like Mr' Perfect and Jericho. GIMMICKS PEOPLE! Jericho and Perfect are so fucking entertaining because of the promo's and entertainment factor that comes with pro-wrestling.

A mix of the two is vital in the creation of the perfect styline. Eve Del Santo and Octagon Vs Eddie and Love Machine had a storyline. Enetertainment is everywhere.

Out of the two of course I'd take a good wrestling match, but it'd be fucking boring if the guys in the match had no personallities, who'd be the face and heel? That's where the entertainment comes in.

You MUST have a mix of the two or you are doomed

[Sea Serpent]

Wrestling is entertainment. But in the world of american professional wrestling, entertainment means all the added forms of entertainment that isn't the sport.

I really care little about added entertainment, unless of course, like Chairshot said, it's funny, which is why I loved what TNA did with Nash. I'm a Lucha Libre fan. In Lucha Libre, the matches tend to be fast-paced and the wrestlers do more athletic things. But anyone who's seen AAA will know that their gimmicks are as wierd as wierd gets. That doesn't bother me. I'm a fan of the more technical wrestling performed in WWE, like the Benoit/MVP match for example. But they do that plus more in other countries, so why bother.

And by the way, I totally disagree with Cena being able to put on a good wrestling match. TheKid argues that the quality of a wrestling match is based on the context. If the wrestlers can get the crowd over, then the match is automatically good? Not to me. I could care less about the context. As long as they're doing their job as athletes, I'm good. And this isn't an attack against WWE either. Here: Recently, Samoa Joe/Kobashi was rated the best match in ROH history. If you've seen it, it's nothing special as far as wrestling goes, but the context is what made it so great. All I want to see is wrestlers entertaining the audience inside of a ring. The rest of that shit should not in any way evaluate the match itself.

[Steve0904]

How is the kid contradicting himself. He just said I really don't care about his character twice. That's not contradicting yourself

[Kid]

thekid is always contracting himself, first he insults CM Punk and then he gets on his nuts.

What??? I'm not even sure ehat that means. Why do you make an interesting post one of these times that generates a discussion???

[UTisNUM1]

How is the kid contradicting himself. He just said I really don't care about his character twice. That's not contradicting yourself

Somebody knows how to read :rolleyes:. He said he doesnt care about charectar and the he says that he doesnt care about people because he doesnt care about there charectar.

[Kid]

Somebody knows how to read :rolleyes:. He said he doesnt care about charectar and the he says that he doesnt care about people because he doesnt care about there charectar.

Wow - you need to learn to read or read it again. Either that or you just don't get it. I care about certain characters and don't care about some others- its really not that hard. the whole point is a guy can do every move in the book and if i don't care about his character it doesn't matter to me. For example jack evans - i could give 2 shits about him even though he has "cool" moves, because there is no connection for me to his character.

[LegendKiller 13]

the entertainment, how do you think wwe got so popular. guys like stone cold,the rock,dx,john cena,chris jericho etc are some of the best entertainers ever

[davrho]

So 2 men/woman get in the ring and start wrestling. We know nothing of them. There is no comentaters to build them up or storyline to follow.Chances are after the initial 2 mins of wrestling we would get fed up and switch channels. Fact.
Does anyone here watch olympic/commomwealth/amatuer wrestling when its on. I doubt it because no one posts about it.
So the entertainment side is essential. I have attended lots of live wwe shows and to be honest i miss the commentry. The king and jr can make a poor match interesting.

[UTisNUM1]

Wow - you need to learn to read or read it again. Either that or you just don't get it. I care about certain characters and don't care about some others- its really not that hard. the whole point is a guy can do every move in the book and if i don't care about his character it doesn't matter to me. For example jack evans - i could give 2 shits about him even though he has "cool" moves, because there is no connection for me to his character.

You need to learn how to clear things up.

[davrho]

To the kid. The reason people make jibes at your punctuation and grammer is because your argument is sound. Instead of debate they will try to kill of your point with petty point scoring. If you go round everyones posts they contradict themselves alot.

[UTisNUM1]

^^^I wasnt talking about his punctuation. I was saying he contridics himself a lot like he did in his post. He isnt that smart.

[Ben]

To the kid. The reason people make jibes at your punctuation and grammer is because your argument is sound. Instead of debate they will try to kill of your point with petty point scoring. If you go round everyones posts they contradict themselves alot.

Umm yeah you spelt grammar wrong.

[davrho]

Umm yeah you spelt grammar wrong.

Say no more. Noticed how no one had anything to add to my point in the debate. Funny that.

[UTisNUM1]

^^^His argument isnt sound, its mute.

[davrho]

So do you agree if 2 people you have never heard of get in a ring with no commentry and wrestle it would make good viewing. Would you watch it 3 times a week. Would it close down the wwe. I dont think so.

[Ben]

Say no more. Noticed how no one had anything to add to my point in the debate. Funny that.

I don't find it that funny. Maybe I'm just a stooge.

[UTisNUM1]

So do you agree if 2 people you have never heard of get in a ring with no commentry and wrestle it would make good viewing. Would you watch it 3 times a week. Would it close down the wwe. I dont think so.

It depends on what commentating you are talking about. Play by Play is better than Color ImO. If they can put on great matches like Hayabusa and Sasuke then yeah it will make good viewing. Its all about sport not voices.

[davrho]

You would be happy with no one comentating. Just the noise from the croud. Interesting.
I challenge you to watch wrestling ,all brands, for 1 week with the sound on your tv turned off. Bet you cant do it.

[Matt]

So 2 men/woman get in the ring and start wrestling. We know nothing of them. There is no comentaters to build them up or storyline to follow.Chances are after the initial 2 mins of wrestling we would get fed up and switch channels. Fact.
Does anyone here watch olympic/commomwealth/amatuer wrestling when its on. I doubt it because no one posts about it.
So the entertainment side is essential. I have attended lots of live wwe shows and to be honest i miss the commentry. The king and jr can make a poor match interesting.

Entertainment is not essential. You shouldn't need a storyline to go along with a match. And that doesn't necessarily need to be olympic/amatuer wrestling either. A match like Homicide vs. Takeshi Morishima had little backround and had really nothing that followed, and that didn't take away from the match at all. And I'm sure the upcoming matches in Hartford with Marufuji/Sydal and Delerious/KENTA will have little to no build up before and after, and will still be great matches.

WWE does actually lose viewers because of it's soap operal like drama. Ask people why they don't like wrestling, and I'm sure a lot of people will say it's too fake, and it's too much like a soap opera, and thats because it is. Wrestling SHOULD be meant to be a sport.

And by the way, JR and King aren't commentators, they're storytellers, BIG difference.

[UTisNUM1]

You would be happy with no one comentating. Just the noise from the croud. Interesting.
I challenge you to watch wrestling ,all brands, for 1 week with the sound on your tv turned off. Bet you cant do it.

Ive done it already. Hurricane Wilma knocked out power in my house. It screwed up my TV and i didnt have sound for 3 weeks before all the stores opened back up so could get a repair. My TV was red and i watch RaW and SmackDown! with a red and no sound TV. Seriously, shut up.

[Juan Miguels]

If there are two good wrestlers in the ring that you know nothing about, but are kick ass performers, then if you changed the channel you would be an idiot and are not watching wrestling for the right reasons, you are watching it as a child would watch the Power Rangers. Gimmicks are not necessary when you have two PRO WRESTLERS going at it such as Malenko vs Jericho because their performance is truely great.

If there is a match between a couple hacks like you would usually see in the WWE, then yes, Jim Ross's bouncing "blah, blah, blah" jaw might tell your brain "this is a good match" because of things like "My god what a clothesline!"

[davrho]

Now we are talking a debate. If gimmicks are not importent then why does every professional wrestling company use them? Strange
So WWE is loosing viewers. Another lie. In the last 3 years wwe attendence has went up. PPV has increased.
Why do most professional wrestlers want to be on WWE? I give you the answer.....................money!
"Seriously shut up" a great argument and a credit to America's education system.

[Juan Miguels]

They use gimmicks to suck in young new viewers. Children. Some gimmicks are funny and thats what makes a good gimmick is humor. I like gimmicks like Jimmy Wang Yang's but gimmicks are not an essential part of a good WRESTLING MATCH. And what do you mean by "Seriously shut up?"
You want trouble or what? Any time you want to debate anything let me know buddy and I'll be more than happy to make you look like an idiot.

[Ben]

Now we are talking a debate. If gimmicks are not importent then why does every professional wrestling company use them? Strange
So WWE is loosing viewers. Another lie. In the last 3 years wwe attendence has went up. PPV has increased.
Why do most professional wrestlers want to be on WWE? I give you the answer.....................money!
"Seriously shut up" a great argument and a credit to America's education system.

Sounds like you weren't very well educated either :rasta

[Juan Miguels]

And the point hes trying to make in his last post is basically non existant.

[Matt]

Now we are talking a debate. If gimmicks are not importent then why does every professional wrestling company use them? Strange
So WWE is loosing viewers. Another lie. In the last 3 years wwe attendence has went up. PPV has increased.
Why do most professional wrestlers want to be on WWE? I give you the answer.....................money!
"Seriously shut up" a great argument and a credit to America's education system.

Every company uses them, but not to the extent that the WWE does. Sure, a promotion like ROH has Delerious, the Jimmy Jacobs, and the "Crazy" Ace Steele gimmicks, but gimmicks aren't needed as you can see with American Dragon, KENTA, Nigel, Mark Briscoe, Jay Briscoe, CM Punk (His lifestyle, therefore, I don't count it as a gimmick), and many others. You'll see even less gimmicks in a lot of Japanese promotions, which is further proof that they are NOT in fact necessary.

Seeing as how ratings for Raw have been on a decline, I'd say thats proof that WWE isn't doing so well. And you don't speak for most professional wrestlers. Hell, a good portion of the indies would like to make the money that you earn in the WWE, but aside from that have Zero desire to be a part of the WWE.

[man_of_1004_holds]

The entertainment factor is what brings a high level of fans to wrestling but for me, the wrestling itself is more important.

[davrho]

Why are there more posts on WWE wrestling than the rest of the subject headers added together?
They use gimmicks to suck in young children. I agree with that. But if they dont use gimmicks then they loose the next generation of fans. No fans = no wrestling.

[shadowx187x]

I think wrestling a little bit over entertainment cause i dont want to see gay moves like a you can see me taunt or a dumb stink face i wamt to see all out wrestling like flipping tricks ,turnbuckle tricks and lucha libre tricks.entertainment is important cause there would be no tlc matches or cage matches and thier would be no hardcore macthes to.

[JonB]

Entertainment is not needed. A good competitive match does it for me. I don't have to know who is wrestling! That's not important to me. If a guy is putting on a show than I'm going to watch. Gimmicks are more a less a tradition. Something wrestlers do to have fun! I enjoy watching WSX because their gimmicks are funny. But you don't see them going around talking talking and talking (not like they had any time). Entertainment is needed...only in the ring. That's why it is called wrestling. Hmm I'm going to use HBK vs. Benjamin for example (since that is one of my all time favorite match). These two are living proof that entertainment and good wrestling can both coexsist without stupid buildups and useless promos. It's all about whats in the ring! Fans in that match enjoyed Benjamin's preformance even though half of them there didn't know who he was. There's the proof.

________
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/WGTT.jpg

[Trixie Dominatrix]

I prefer to watch wrestling over entertainment, because I believe a good wrestler is what can make a match entertaining. That's how I began to like Low-Ki, Kenta, Great Muta, Homocide, Shelley and Lethal. I didnt know much about any of them, but I started watching their matches from ROH, JAPW, Zero-1 and I grew to love them because they kept me interested with the moves that they do.

Gimmicks are not at all important in wrestling, all they do is give them an identity to make themselves known to the crowd which is basically not needed because half the gimmicks are based off of their own personality anyway. For example Low Ki doesnt have a gimmick, he just goes out and wrestles, he's neutral with the crowd, they either boo him or cheer him, doesnt matter, they all like him because of the matches he can put on, even people who dont know who he is end up liking him.

Commentating is not at all important either. Say somebody was watching a wrestling match, but they were busy doing something else at the same time, they have the commentators to listen to, to tell them what's happening, that's all their really there for. I'm a big fan of Zero-1 and since they speak in a different language I'm basically watching it on silent and you know what? I'm still watching it, why? Because I like watching them wrestling and seeing new moves I havent seen before from different people.

I dont know how you can say "Oh if I dont know who the guy that's wrestling is I'm not going to watch him". How do you think we all got interested in these wrestlers right now? We didnt know who they were at first, but you know what we started watching them and we grew to like them, just like alot of other wrestlers.

Wrestling > Entertainment

[Kid]

^^^I wasnt talking about his punctuation. I was saying he contridics himself a lot like he did in his post. He isnt that smart.

First - I didn't contradict myself as has been pointed many times already - you just happen to be a little slow. And as far as not being smart - when was the last time you contributed anything that generated an interesting discussion as far as wrestling goes in these forums. Half of your post are spam and the other half of it is you just criticizing someone for their opinons. Half of your post are something like this :

Worthless > UTNUM1

[toe nail124]

First - I didn't contradict myself as has been pointed many times already - you just happen to be a little slow. And as far as not being smart - when was the last time you contributed anything that generated an interesting discussion as far as wrestling goes in these forums. Half of your post are spam and the other half of it is you just criticizing someone for their opinons. Half of your post are something like this :

Worthless > UTNUM1

can u say pwned


and to actualy get on subject.....can u(takeisnum1) actualy make a valid point/example on how he(kid22) is contridicting himself?

[UTisNUM1]

First - I didn't contradict myself as has been pointed many times already - you just happen to be a little slow. And as far as not being smart - when was the last time you contributed anything that generated an interesting discussion as far as wrestling goes in these forums. Half of your post are spam and the other half of it is you just criticizing someone for their opinons. Half of your post are something like this :

Worthless > UTNUM1

I dont contribute?! Wow thats new. Ive posted more topics than your post count buddy from different wrestling sites and have posted more videos than your post count also. I contirbute to this site more than you can contribute in your and that isnt much. You are useless and Toenail stop being a kiss ass.

Read the part of the post i think on the first page where i pointed it out.

[Matt]

Why are there more posts on WWE wrestling than the rest of the subject headers added together?
They use gimmicks to suck in young children. I agree with that. But if they dont use gimmicks then they loose the next generation of fans. No fans = no wrestling.

The only reason the WWE would lose fans is because they were brought up with the WWE, which shoved gimmicks and storylines down their throats, rather than the wrestling. It would be a completely different story if these gimmicks weren't as common in wrestling.

And as far as the WWE section being more active, hmmmm... Lets see, maybe because it's the biggest promotion with the easiest access? Maybe thats it?

[toe nail124]

and Toenail stop being a kiss ass.

Read the part of the post i think on the first page where i pointed it out.

the one page u didnt exactly "point it out" and for the record im not being a kiss ass ur just trying to be a bully when he is alot smarter then u

[UTisNUM1]

Oh yeah he is so much smarter than me :rolleyes:, whats with people and the bully thing. Its getting old. People were calling me a bully along with Chanandler since October maybem, its quite funny, keep it up.

On page 1 i did point it out. He said he doesnt care about peoples Charectars, then he says that he doesnt watch certain people because he doesnt care a lot for their charectar. If he doesnt care about charectar then he should like them based on the wrestling.

[toe nail124]

Oh yeah he is so much smarter than me :rolleyes:, whats with people and the bully thing. Its getting old. People were calling me a bully along with Chanandler since October maybem, its quite funny, keep it up.

.

if its quite funny then why mention it?

On page 1 i did point it out. He said he doesnt care about peoples Charectars, then he says that he doesnt watch certain people because he doesnt care a lot for their charectar. If he doesnt care about charectar then he should like them based on the wrestling.

i actualy see ur point in this but still he said he doesnt watch wrestling for characters but it helps

[davrho]

The only reason the WWE would lose fans is because they were brought up with the WWE, which shoved gimmicks and storylines down their throats, rather than the wrestling. It would be a completely different story if these gimmicks weren't as common in wrestling.

And as far as the WWE section being more active, hmmmm... Lets see, maybe because it's the biggest promotion with the easiest access? Maybe thats it?

If they were not brought up with wwe then the chances are when they grow up they will have no interest in wrestling. Like it or not wwe brings wrestling to the masses. I started watching wrestling (british- big daddy, kendo nagasaki etc)as a kid. This stopped when tv executives decided to kill the industry. It was wwe who brought it back. I was fortunate to watch the monday night wars. When i lived in the uk i was fortunate to have TWC. this showed most brands. Unfortunately i cant get this on ntl.

if the wwe product was that bad fans would not buy it.
the facts i said the other day are true. Attendences have risen the last 3 years. Turnover has increased in the 3 years. Raws viewing figures may have dropped but when you run a business turnover and profits are all that matters.

[Matt]

^Thats the thing, the fans don't know any better. Most casuals wouldn't know a 1/2* match from a 5 star match. Hell, I doubt most of them know a wrist lock from a headlock, but anyways, the point is, if WWE delivered WRESTLING, not a soap opera, people would want to see wrestling more, WWE just feels the need to turn it into a TV drama, thats why storylines are high in demand.

[davrho]

I agree the fans dont know any better. But if your fed something you begin to like it.
Is wrestling taught in schools in the usa? In Scotland we had no education on the fundamentals of wrestling. Our sports education was pathetic. Soccer or soccer.
In ireland i know of 1 wrestling association. Irish whip wrestling. They do not get wrestling in school.
If you ran an old school match lasting half an hour or best of 3 falls match most fans would lose interest.
I honestly think wrestling and sports entertainment are 2 different entities.
wwe does not deliver wrestling but what it does deliver is addictive good fun.
Would you be for wwe to offer a non comercial show with the (non gimmick)wrestlers going toe to toe hard at it. The commentators talk wrestling moves and holds. More of an education than a show. The talent is there for this. I for one think this could open wresting further.

[Kid]

Truth B Told 12.6.07: TNA…We WERE Wrestling.
Posted by Bayani Domingo on 12.06.2007 @ 411mania.com

Okay, so maybe it’s time to officially call TNA, WCW-lite. TBT is betting the “under” on TNA making any “Impact” in the coming year.

If you don't want another patented TBT type rants this week, then feel free to check out the "6 Degrees" section, the feedback, the funny little jokes in the "Leftovers" section or just rub one out to the Hot Asian Bitch this week. If you're anything like ME however and got all excited that Samoa Joe's "shoot" might mean a movement towards expunging the roster of the older tired guard, only to find out that it was all for naught and the ‘same old shit' is going to take place week in and week out and wanting to use your "Best of the X-Division" DVD's to slit your wrists, then stick around. It's going to be quite a fun little rant.

They had me for a second. I really did believe for a full 12 hours that Samoa Joe's "shoot" was planned. I mean, there is a rule in wrestling that if it's on TV, it's probably a work. So I was thinking that either Hall was supposed to ‘no-show' to kick off a "new breed/Natural Born Thrillers" type of angle where the young guys go against the older ex-WWE/WCW guys or maybe Hall was in fact supposed to show up so that made them panic and pull the trigger on an angle even sooner. I came into work on Monday all excited, only to find out that Joe apparently "went into business for himself" during the PPV and stepped way out of bounds. No real plans were in place to get rid of the Nash's, Steiner's, Dudleyz's, or VKM's on the roster, it was all "business as usual". I was disappointed. I wasn't surprised or angry, just disappointed that it was a tease. It wasn't TNA's fault, but it was just so perfect that deep down I knew it was probably too good to be true. Why actually pretend that the company had not only been listening to what their fans have been saying, but actually plan to do something about it.

I then found out that TNA pulled a "Bischoff" and told anyone that wanted their release they could have it. Then Senshi stood up and he was gone. No one else bothered because they needed the paycheck so it makes Joe look a bit foolish and it almost makes management that much more smug that THEY and not the fans are ones who really know what works. I mean, if the wrestlers weren't happy then why would they stay right? I'm going to go ahead and spoil next week's episode for you guys do if you don't read spoilers then skip to the next paragraph. I found out that even though Senshi is going to be gone and they had the perfect out for him, they had someone else "fired" instead. Fucking awesome. Instead of just having Senshi go out they decide to go with some other retarded angle instead. I guess that means Senshi wasn't going to be fired after all, and perhaps some kind of push would be in line. Guess not. I'm pissed now.

I'm pissed off because TNA has fulfilled none of the promises they made us in the Pre-Angle era. They aren't "wrestling" anymore, they're soap opera. A bad soap opera at that. I guess my expectations were wrong. I looked at the line up and talent roster and thought perhaps TNA would be free televised RoH. Great wrestlers and an environment that forced them to be innovative and different. I thought they wanted to be a "wrestling show". But they don't. NO ONE wants to be a wrestling show. You don't sign Dustin Runnels, Johnny Stamboli, Scott Hall, and Pacman Jones if you want to be a "wrestling show". You don't give 15 mins each show to segments involving leprechauns, you don't let Layla El wrestle, you don't spend 10 mins setting up a segment where the only payoff is a guy saying "DAMN" if you want to be a "wrestling show". No one wants to be a wrestling show anymore. They want to be entertainment. They want to tell stories and showcase their athletes and actors, they don't want to give us ring psychology and wrestlers. I had high hopes for TNA and they've done nothing but let me down.

I look at the WWE and I realize that they are trying to revert the business back to the old days, where wrestlers were larger than life and little guys were merely jobbers and clowns. They want to bring us back to when stories dominated the scene and not flashy moves. That's why few guys bother using the top rope anymore. That's why we get "finishers" like a simple DDT, Full Nelson, and a kick to the head. The WWE wants to change the way wrestling fans view wrestling now and they can do it because of who they are and what they were. They don't want to make flashy moves the norm anymore because they don't have the kind of guys on the roster that can pull it off anymore, because of the young guys they want to sign with the big builds and the old guys they keep around who aren't as physical as they used to be. They can't compete with the "X-Division" and Indy flippity flop guys so they don't try. They know their niche and they can drive their niche market into any direction they choose. They don't have to grow their market, just maintain.

TNA doesn't have that luxury. Not only are they not growing their market, they aren't even keeping their current fans happy. Do you know WHY we watched TNA? Because of the wrestlers they poached from the rest of the Indies we wanted to see. Now we don't even get to see them do what they did anymore. So why bother? Its like having a crush on a girl in school for years only for her to finally break up with her boyfriend and you get to swoop in and make her yours. Then you find out that all that great stuff about her has gone away. Is it worth it to stick around based on nostalgia? Or would you rather find a fresher, hotter chick willing to do what it takes to keep you interested? I think those of us hoping that TNA was televised RoH and the X-Division/Tag Division would make it all worthwhile can finally stop watching. The talent is there but the booking isn't.

All I want is good wrestling. I need a bit of story and I don't care if 2 matches every PPV involve the Dudleyz, VKM, Black Reign, and Kevin Nash, just give me 4 good long matches every PPV and I'll be happy. Why can't TNA give me that? Why can't they be the young guys, why can't they BE the innovation and action? Why do they not listen to us fans when it's clear we know what the hell we want? Why is it people can not learn from the past and are doomed to repeat it? Is it finally going to take Vince McMahon showing up on Impact with the deed to the company to finally get through to them?

I could give two shits about any of the guys on the roster who used to be someone back in 2000. That's not what I want. If I wanted to see the New Age Outlaws fight the Dudleyz I can buy a fucking DVD in the bargain bin at Walmart. TNA makes all these promises but in the end I can't understand who it is they think they are satisfying. I hate the fact that TNA has no idea what their fans want. Or if they do they just don't give a shit. When you think about it, the world of wrestling is one of the few industries that doesn't give you the opportunity to give feedback. Movies have "screenings" where they see how and audience reacts and then decides if changes should be made. Food products have test groups, restaurants have comment cards, even a stripper will ask you how you enjoyed her cooch in your face and if you'd like another dance? Do you think Dixie and Vince have a "customer service" e-mail address you can write into? Do you think they read wrestling websites and ask some of those writers to sit down and ‘pow wow' with them? It's basically a one way street of communication. For all PWG and RoH do they do one thing well, listen to the buzz on the message boards. I'm not sure how great of an idea that is all the time considering how the people on the boards can be (except for you fine folks here …at 411mania *thumbs up*), but at least it's something.

I don't know what to do anymore. I don't want to buy the PPVs. I don't rush home from work to catch Impact anymore. If I'm done with the gym, and I finish dinner with a buddy early enough I'll check out Impact, if not, fuck it. If a DVD comes out that looks okay I might buy it, or wait for it to go on sale around my b-day and I'm sure someone else might get it for me. I have lost my motivation for TNA because they have lost their motivation towards me. Why would I put my time and effort into a product that doesn't put it's time and effort into satisfying me? It's hard. I know I can't quit TNA because I am a wrestle-aholic, but I just don't care anymore. I've given up hope that TNA will turn things around and listen to the fans and give the young/hungry guys the ball to run with, because it just doesn't matter. No matter who they sign, no matter who they push, they don't grow their audience and they don't lose it either.

If they would only realize that they will never be able to steal the "e's" audience doing the things the "e" does but even cornier. Then maybe they'd realize that the audience that they NEED to pursue are the jilted Indy fans who hate the ‘E' and might be interested in the young guys they have on their roster. If you took every fan who in 6 months time won't have CZW or IWA:MS or some other Indy fed to watch anymore and you got them to tune into TNA and buy a PPV or two, then THAT is your growing market share. But alas, TNA has no faith in their ability to market their own product. They'd rather ride the coattails of wrestlers that the "e" made famous. Why spend the time and effort into a wrestler who might not ever be popular when you can sign a washed up guy that already HAD a built in fan base already? That's right, because the HAD it…not that they do anymore.

I think the real problem is that TNA isn't bad enough to make you swear off of them forever and manage to keep a few good matches or segments or wrestlers around just to tease us with some ‘goodness' while sticking it to us with VKM, 76 Kurt Angle segments, and misplaced ‘pushes'. Of the wrestlers on the roster 3/4th of them are ‘Good' to ‘useful' while only a quarter of them are probably best left for small Indy shows in the Bible belt. About half of the concept matches they come up with are good, i.e. Ultimate X, World X Cup, Monster's Ball, but then you have scaffold matches, blind fold matches, reverse battle royals, and anything involving Kip James having an equal chance at winning a World Title shot as Christian Cage or Shark Boy. They have some good wrestling minds in the company, but the big problem is that the booking committee is full of retards and the owner of the company, while well meaning and passionate and willing to shun the limelight, has far too much faith in some people's opinions and advice than she has any business having. For someone who really wants to "listen to the fans" she sure doesn't seem to hear what they are saying. Or worse yet, believe it. How about just once Dixie, just once, you help build a company that is all about the fans, not the egos of the men holding the pens and scripts. Why would you mock the WWE, then try to be like them, only to fail and end up like WCW. I guess she never read up on her wiki because I heard a rumor that WCW didn't end up so well. Well at least they aren't stuck with the same circle of jerks who sent it down in....flames.....awww crap. Someone hide Bischoff's cell phone number.

All in all I'm disappointed in TNA. I have no faith in them anymore and I will not waste my time or money on them any longer. I'll watch when I can and there is nothing else to do, and if it's free. Sorry, but Russo, JJ, and Dutch aren't getting my dollar bills anymore. I'd rather save them for the strippers. At least they admit they are all teasing and no pleasing. That is unless you get a slightly drunk one in the "Champagne Room" and you don't mind blowing your tax refund money. Hey, watch TNA, enjoy the good, try to turn a blind eye to the bad and feel free to write in and let me know what something notable happens. As for me, I'm taking a vacation for a while. In fact, I refuse to watch TNA again until at least one of the following conditions are met, a) Samoa Joe becomes the TNA World Champion, b) The MCMG's become tag champions, c) Russo, Black Reign, or VKM are fired, d) Byers actually gives three Impact episodes positive reviews in a row (yeah, least likely of the conditions), or e) Gail Kim comes to my house offers to practice huricanrana counters with me through an entire episode of Impact. Yeah...I guess I'll see you next school year TNA. K-I-T. Stay Cool!!

The Truth

I hate TNA. Right now. I'm sure I'll get suckered into watch a PPV at some point. Only problem is there are far less wrestling buddies of mine who are willing to plunk down $9 to watch a show at a bar or chip in to get it on TV. I don't have any faith in the company and to be honest it's going to take some big changes in the title picture and it's going to take at least a few releases to get me back into the fold. I'm not going about X-Division or loyal workers either. I'm pissed, I'm disenfranchised, and I'm not willing to get my kicks watching Leprechauns and Real World Retards. The Indy scene in SoCal is stagnant till New Year and I guess that leaves me one thing to do. Check out all those DVD's I've been stockpiling. Thank God it's X-mas time because I've got quite a ‘Christmas List', hmm... maybe I should make it Chanukah...7 times more likely to get something good. Aww, who am I kidding? It's socks and undies for at least 4 of those days.

[ThePeoplesEyebrow]

It has become apparent that Vince McMahon has obviously placed all focus on the 'Entertainment' aspect of 'WWE' rather than the Wrestling aspect. Just look at the card for Wrestlemania for the evidence. Money Mayweather? Rayven Simone? There was a time when I was a kid, around 10 years ago where I would stay up till 12am to watch Raw is War (In the UK, Raw is War was shown on a friday at 10-12) to watch the programme for not only the entertainment aspect that superstars such as The Rock, Stone Cold and D-Generation X gave, but also for the great wrestling matches that these superstars produced. Every Raw for the last 5-7 years has been very predictable, as well as highly boring from my perspective. There are no unique matches any more and every match seems to be a singles match or a tag match. Gone are the days where there would be a Hell in a Cell match on Raw or where there would be an I Quit match headlining.

The debate im trying to bring across here is, has Vince MaMahon lost focus on the wrestling aspect of the WWE or is he trying to give the new, younger generation of wrestling fans what he thinks they want in the form of Showbiz names and other extravegant forms of entertainment?

[RKOwned]

It has become apparent that Vince McMahon has obviously placed all focus on the 'Entertainment' aspect of 'WWE' rather than the Wrestling aspect. Just look at the card for Wrestlemania for the evidence. Money Mayweather? Rayven Simone? There was a time when I was a kid, around 10 years ago where I would stay up till 12am to watch Raw is War (In the UK, Raw is War was shown on a friday at 10-12) to watch the programme for not only the entertainment aspect that superstars such as The Rock, Stone Cold and D-Generation X gave, but also for the great wrestling matches that these superstars produced. Every Raw for the last 5-7 years has been very predictable, as well as highly boring from my perspective. There are no unique matches any more and every match seems to be a singles match or a tag match. Gone are the days where there would be a Hell in a Cell match on Raw or where there would be an I Quit match headlining.

The debate im trying to bring across here is, has Vince MaMahon lost focus on the wrestling aspect of the WWE or is he trying to give the new, younger generation of wrestling fans what he thinks they want in the form of Showbiz names and other extravegant forms of entertainment?

You just can't have I quit matches or HIAC's on Raw anymore, because guys work too hard of schedules to do that anymore. They're flying all over the world.

...but yes, the Vince doesn't emphasize the second W in WWE anymore. Might as well change it to wide, and make it World Wide Entertainment. Sure, they're will be great matches every now and then, but I would much rather see a great match than some stupid segment making fun of Chris Crocker.

Most of the new age fans could care less about matches now and just want to watch something funny. It's sad, but it's true.

[ThePeoplesEyebrow]

I completely understand the hectic schedule and how it prohibits I quit matches, etc. from being done every week. But it's the same type of match week after week.

[RKOwned]

I agree, I would like to see gimmick match every now and then as well.

[The Jeremy]

In defense of there usage of Raven Symone, she is not wrestling and is there for make-a-wish.

[Kid]

The debate im trying to bring across here is, has Vince MaMahon lost focus on the wrestling aspect of the WWE or is he trying to give the new, younger generation of wrestling fans what he thinks they want in the form of Showbiz names and other extravegant forms of entertainment?

Did you just notice this? Its not like this is something new.

[ThePeoplesEyebrow]

Did you just notice this? Its not like this is something new.

No, as I stated, its been for the last 5-7 years. Thanks for reading through the whole initial post though. :hmpf:

And regarding Raven Symone, I know she's not wrestling and it is for a charitable cause but they are using her name as an entertainer to try and attract more viewers, rather than focus on the wrestling attracting more viewers.

[The Jeremy]

And regarding Raven Symone, I know she's not wrestling and it is for a charitable cause but they are using her name as an entertainer to try and attract more viewers, rather than focus on the wrestling attracting more viewers.

I disagree, I believe they are pushing the charitable thing and since she is there they just throw it in to point out that they are not 100 percent responsible for the cause.

[ThePeoplesEyebrow]

Hmm. I see your point.